Why is 'animal welfare' more common in EA than 'animal rights'?
By Karla Still 🔸 @ 2025-01-26T11:55 (+14)
I'm working on building a better understanding of what strategies to prioritise when wanting to do the most good for animals but I haven't wanted to rely solely on EA sources and books recommended among EAs so I've participated in some animal advocacy groups in Finland as well.
One thing that has stood out to me, is that in EA we almost explicitly talk about 'animal welfare' whereas that term is seldom used in the animal advocacy spaces I've been to in Finland. For example, talking about'animal rights' is a more common.
Right now I'm reading a Finnish book on politics and animals where they discuss the differences between the animal protection movement and animal rights movement and how they've over time have converged. I once asked the author about 'welfarist'/reductionary vs. abolitionist approach knowing that there is internal disagreements in the movement around this topic. The brief response was that we're all working towards the same goal of eventually ending factory farming.
Why is it that 'animal welfare' is a term so widely used in EA? I assume it is not a random choice.
I guess (some people) might have negative associations with 'animal rights', from more radical activism done by some animal rights organisations. When doing marginal improvements e.g. through corporate campaigns, improving 'animal welfare' might avoid this and also result in less cognitive dissonance for the parties. On the other the framework of animal rights can also be valuable, acknowledging that non-human animals should have rights to wellbeing, the same way there are human rights and children's rights. Does this make sense to you?
Is it then rather a difference in the theory of change of the actors? An organisation focused on legislations and policy making might focus on animal rights while those advocating for more humane industry practices talk about animal welfare? Where does the vegan, consumer focused movement stand in this? Would Open Philantropy's farmed animal welfare unit do different grantmaking decisions if its name was OP farmed animal rights? Same for EA Funds animal welfare fund.
Curious to hear different thoughts. And please share a bit of your relation to EA/FAW/animal advocacy if you're comfortable, so it's easier to put the comments in context.
Jasnah Kholin @ 2025-01-26T12:40 (+10)
well, I personally don't talk about animal rights because I don't believe in animal rights, and find the way most right discussions go bad and mind-killed. I also don't talk about right when talking about malaria in Africa! people don't have "right" to not be sick. I want people not to be sick and die, and willing to pay for that.
I just generally don't look on the world using right-glasses, and don't find those googles helpful. quit the opposite.
my question is the opposite - why do you want to talk about rights? In my model, EAs tend talk less about right, because the sort of people who tend to become EAs tend to think less in framework of rights, and more in the EA framework. that the default EA reaction to sentence like "animals should have rights to wellbeing" should be "taboo the word right".
(I don't personally active in anything, i give 29.5% of my donations to Animal Welfare. and this is the name i use in a file that I created for myself, to describe the categories the way i think about them.)
Karla Still 🔸 @ 2025-02-03T12:16 (+1)
Thanks for the response! I didn't first think of different moral value systems which obviously have an impact on how people view the issue of animal suffering and well-being. I still think a 'rights' mindset can be a valuable extension of utilitarianism, for implementing the change we want to happen on an institutional/legislative level to improve animal welfare. I also think it is easier to imagine personhood for non-human animals when using a rights-based approach. They are not just beings that events are happening to, but individuals for whom the ability to live a full life using their capabilities is instrumental for their well-being. And there talking about rights can be useful. That's how I'd quickly sum up how I think about it :)
emre kaplan🔸 @ 2025-01-26T18:34 (+7)
Here's what I personally think about using welfare vs. rights jargon in my advocacy. These are some unpolished thoughts that I'm hoping to explore further in the future.
Pro welfare:
Some anti-incrementalist animal advocates try to gatekeep the term "animal rights". They frequently complain when incrementalist folks use the expression "animal rights". When I ask these advocates "What kind of empirical evidence would change your mind" sometimes I get the response "No biased study in this speciesist world would make me sell out my principles. Just like no evidence could convince me there could be merits to torture, I'm never going to negotiate on the basic rights of animals". This makes me react "Ok, in that case I'm not going to swear allegiance to your banner and I will grow what I believe to be good".
Existing animal advocacy is already heavy on rights. Focusing on welfare jargon allows me to raise a distinct banner, differentiate my brand and organise people who are more sympathetic towards welfarist thinking.
I'm happy with the philosophical welfarist tradition and their moral leadership on many issues. I want to signal continuity with that tradition.
Rights based jargon is in strong tension with non-violent communication. Rights based jargon invokes a frame in which some people are sinners and should be punished. I'm not sure how useful non-violent communication is. But if it's useful then it's better to avoid rights jargon.
When I look at the arguments themselves before taking peer disagreement into account, my first-order beliefs are very consequentialist. I think arguments against the significance of personal identity and arguments against the moral significance of act/omission or intend/foresee distinction are powerful and correct. As the main purpose of the communication is to make myself clear to the relevant stakeholders, welfare jargon is better equipped to make my beliefs clear.
Pro rights
Many people understand mere moral standing in terms of rights. Saying "animals have rights" is basically equivalent to saying "animals have moral standing" for these people. So singling out animals by talking about "animal welfare" when the whole world talks about "human rights" might diminish perceived moral standing of animals.
In Turkish civil society, the term "rights based" is used to differentiate organisations that play by the rules of international human rights framework. I'm a huge fan of these norms and I'm happy to play by that book. Refusing being "rights based" because of my philosophical commitments would confuse people about where I stand in a political divide.
Since I take peer disagreement very seriously, I give significant credence to rights based theories and I'm not a welfarist. I also would like basic legal human rights to be extended to non-human animals. Avoiding rights terminology makes it harder to communicate this aspect of my thinking.
I want to maintain that incrementalist animal advocacy and wild animal welfare work are actually compatible with a rights based ethical theory. By avoiding rights language, I fear conceding this framework entirely to anti incrementalist advocates.
Karla Still 🔸 @ 2025-02-03T12:37 (+1)
So, to summarize:
- Some animal rights activists have impractical attitudes (for creating change effectively, such as not using non-violent communication) and alienating attitudes towards non-rights-based interventions to improve animal welfare. You find value in promoting other approaches than that.
- You find good arguments for welfarist tradition.
- On the other hand, being against animal rights doesn't cling right and talking for animal rights can be a good shortcut.
- You believe there is an overlap with welfarist and rights-based ethical theories that should be appreciated.
Did I understand you right?
Alistair Stewart @ 2025-02-02T04:34 (+1)
>Rights based jargon is in strong tension with non-violent communication. Rights based jargon invokes a frame in which some people are sinners and should be punished.
Seems wrong to me – can you say more?
emre kaplan🔸 @ 2025-02-02T09:36 (+3)
Many advocates try to practice non-violent communication by merely criticising actions instead of individuals. But non-violent communication is stricter than that. Here's one example from "Non Violent Communication: A Language of Life". The anecdote starts with a cab driver making an antisemitic remark:
MBR: “You know, when you first started to talk, I felt a lot of anger, a lot of frustration, sadness and discouragement, because I’ve had very different experiences with Jews than you’ve had, and I was wanting you to have much more the kind of experiences I’ve had. Can you tell me what you heard me say?”
Man: “Oh, I’m not saying they’re all . . . ”
MBR: “Excuse me, hold on, hold it. Can you tell me what you heard me say?
Man: “What are you talking about?”
MBR: “Let me repeat what I’m trying to say. I really want you to just hear the pain I felt when I heard your words. It’s really important to me that you hear that. I was saying I felt a real sense of sadness because my experiences with Jewish people have been very different. I was just wishing that you had had some experiences that were different from the ones you were describing. Can you tell me what you heard me say?”
Man: “You’re saying I have no right to talk the way I did.”
MBR: “No, I would like you to hear me differently. I really don’t want to blame you. I have no desire to blame you.”
In this section many advocates would not be happy with correcting the expression "You’re saying I have no right to talk the way I did.".
In general, I think the language used for rights based theories is in continuity with religious ethics in which actions are divided into "positive/neutral/negative" categories. When you do negative actions you incur some kind of debt and that debt should and will be repaid in terms of punishment in hell. Forbidden actions are forbidden because God backs them up with authority. He exercises punishment when people disregard his authority.
I think given the history and culture it's very difficult to divorce "You have no right to do that" from "It would be good if you were punished" and "Hey, people around, punish that guy and be happy when this guy gets punished".
To be fair, non-violent communication is pretty much against all morality statements. But I think welfarist language(makes happier, gives suffering, better things to do, worse things to do, results in worse/better/best/worst state of affairs) is less continuous with the religious tradition around debts and punishment.
Alistair Stewart @ 2025-02-03T17:35 (+1)
Interesting – I hadn't heard that point of view before.
I think I see where you're coming from, but I would say any kind of moral advocacy is in tension with nonviolent communication. You can go from talking about about "improving farmed animal welfare with systemic interventions" to "you are unnecessarily hurting animals by not being vegan" all in the language and framework of welfare.
This line of yours definitely continues to feel too strong to me:
>Rights based jargon is in strong tension with non-violent communication. Rights based jargon invokes a frame in which some people are sinners and should be punished.
Forumite @ 2025-01-26T13:03 (+7)
Jeff Sebo's talk, "A utilitarian case for animal rights", is relevant to this. You can find a video and transcript here: https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/u55MrNS3xvD4pf34m/jeff-sebo-a-utilitarian-case-for-animal-rights
Summary: Utilitarianism, which holds that we ought to maximize well-being, is thought to conflict with animal rights because it does not regard activities such as the exploitation of domesticated animals and extermination of wild animals as, in principle, morally wrong. Jeff Sebo, a clinical assistant professor at New York University, argues that this conflict is overstated. When we account for indirect effects, such as the role that policies play in shaping moral attitudes and behaviour, we can see that utilitarianism may converge with animal rights significantly, even if not entirely.
Karla Still 🔸 @ 2025-02-03T12:38 (+2)
Thank you! Looks like what I was looking for :)
Joseph @ 2025-01-26T17:15 (+4)
I don't have an answer to your question, but this post from a few years ago might help build context and understanding.
The 2013 debate between Gary Francione and Bruce Friedrich was also quite illuminating to watch (although I need to remind myself that just because one side is represented by a person who appears more composed or who is a better debater, it doesn't demonstrate that side's truth/accuracy).
Camille @ 2025-01-26T14:16 (+3)
[This does not represent the opinion of my employer]
I currently mostly write content for an Effective Giving Initiative, and I think it would be somewhat misleading to write that we recommend animal charities that defend animal rights -people would misconstrue what we're talking about. Avoided suffering is what we think about when explaining who "made it" to the home page, it's part of the methodology, and my estimates ultimately weigh in on that. It's also the methodology of the evaluators who do all the hard work.
My guess would be that EA has a vast majority of consequentialists, whose success criterion is wellbeing, and whose methodology is [feasible because it is] welfare-focused (e.g. animal-adjusted QALYs per dollar spent). This probably sedimented itself early and people plausibly haven't questioned it a lot so far. EA-aligned rights-focused interventions exist, but they're ultimately measured according to their gains in terms of welfare.
On my side, I think it's already hard as it is to select cost-effective charities with a consequentialist framework (and sell it to people!), and "rights" add in a lot of additional distinctions (e.g. rights as means vs as ends) which makes it hard to operationalize. I can write an article about why we recommend animal welfare charity X in terms of avoided counterfactual suffering, but I'm clueless if I had to recommend it in terms of avoided right infringement, because it's harder to measure, and I'm not even sure of what I'm talking about.
I'd be happy to see people from other positions give their opinion, this is a strictly personal view.
Karla Still 🔸 @ 2025-02-03T12:49 (+1)
Fair enough! Thanks for sharing this perspective as well. I guess that a rights-based animal charity evaluator would focus more on making change through legislation and litigation, failing to notice other approaches to improve animal welfare. However, there could be something that the current approach of EA orgs is missing more easily, which the rights-based lens would include.